RisanF
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Post by RisanF on Mar 11, 2004 5:08:59 GMT
If anything's wrong with Chrono Cross, its the gameplay. From having a lousy magic system (as usual with Square's ideas, it sounds good on paper but doesn't work well in implementation) to the battle and experience system... as usual, Square does nearly everything wrong. I just find the game hard to get into because of it's lousy gameplay. For me, it just dosen't feel anything like Chrono Trigger. Toriyama's eye-catching character styles are gone, the simple but cool Tech system is gone, and the storyline feels wispy and ethereal instead of hardhitting and energizing. Chrono Cross is my Season Two, to put it in a way you will relate on. Should I ever write a Chrono Trigger fanfoc, you can bet your last Skunky Scout cookie that Cross will have no part in it.
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Post by numbuheightbitstar on Mar 11, 2004 5:16:10 GMT
For me, it just dosen't feel anything like Chrono Trigger. Toriyama's eye-catching character styles are gone, the simple but cool Tech system is gone, and the storyline feels wispy and ethereal instead of hardhitting and energizing. Chrono Cross is my Season Two, to put it in a way you will relate on. Should I ever write a Chrono Trigger fanfoc, you can bet your last Skunky Scout cookie that Cross will have no part in it. I find your post rather ironic (especially since I remember having once compared Season Two to Chrono Cross myself). But I agree with all your points. Here's an interesting anecdote: Square actually hired out Enix's Dragon Quest team to make Chrono Trigger (save for that they used Nobuo Uematsu to make the music). Considering that Yuji Horii is a flippin' genious at game design (even though Dragon Warrior VII was a little weak) it's no surprise Chrono Trigger was so good. For Chrono Cross, Square used entirely their own guys... and unfortunately, Square's philosophy is that they've got to change things, innovate for the sake of innovation, often causing them to try and "fix" systems that were never broken in the first place. What was wrong, for example, with simply buying and selling weapons and armor? Now you not only need to do that but also have to collect parts for it, which is just plain stupid. It's kinda like George Lucas with the Star Wars prequels, if you think about it.
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RisanF
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Posts: 244
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Post by RisanF on Mar 11, 2004 6:16:08 GMT
I find your post rather ironic (especially since I remember having once compared Season Two to Chrono Cross myself). But I agree with all your points. Here's an interesting anecdote: Square actually hired out Enix's Dragon Quest team to make Chrono Trigger (save for that they used Nobuo Uematsu to make the music). Considering that Yuji Horii is a flippin' genious at game design (even though Dragon Warrior VII was a little weak) it's no surprise Chrono Trigger was so good. For Chrono Cross, Square used entirely their own guys... and unfortunately, Square's philosophy is that they've got to change things, innovate for the sake of innovation, often causing them to try and "fix" systems that were never broken in the first place. What was wrong, for example, with simply buying and selling weapons and armor? Now you not only need to do that but also have to collect parts for it, which is just plain stupid. It's kinda like George Lucas with the Star Wars prequels, if you think about it. One correction: the composer for Chrono Trigger was not Nobuo Umatsu, but Yasunori Mitsuda. He also did the music for Xenogears, and he freakin' rocks. The combination of Square's guys, Enix's guys, and the Dragon Warrior/Quest artist Akira Toriyama was called the Dream Team, I believe. Going without half the original team a huge diviation right there. Now, I believe change can be both good and bad, but this one did not seem good. OT: You know what would be a good anime for Toonami? Dragon Warrior. It's a great adventure, with cool characters, can be edited fairly easily, and would be a great change of pace from the Robot/Fighting/Card Game anime that's cutting through the airwaves. Chichi the Slime is much better than Pikachu, at any rate.
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Post by numbuheightbitstar on Mar 11, 2004 6:20:38 GMT
The combination of Square's guys, Enix's guys, and the Dragon Warrior/Quest artist Akira Toriyama was called the Dream Team, I believe. Going without half the original team a huge diviation right there. Now, I believe change can be both good and bad, but this one did not seem good. OT: You know what would be a good anime for Toonami? Dragon Warrior. It's a great adventure, with cool characters, can be edited fairly easily, Especially considering that there's already an edited dub for American TV. That would be cool, particularly if it inspired them to pick up the rest of the series and put it on bilingual DVD. When it comes to Square, I find it ironic that their best games are (in my opinion) the ones that stick closer to usual RPG gameplay conventions, while their worst ones are the ones that try to offer new and unique gameplay mechanics... I'll never forget the disaster that was Final Fantasy II.
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RisanF
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Posts: 244
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Post by RisanF on Mar 11, 2004 6:41:59 GMT
Especially considering that there's already an edited dub for American TV. That would be cool, particularly if it inspired them to pick up the rest of the series and put it on bilingual DVD. When it comes to Square, I find it ironic that their best games are (in my opinion) the ones that stick closer to usual RPG gameplay conventions, while their worst ones are the ones that try to offer new and unique gameplay mechanics... I'll never forget the disaster that was Final Fantasy II. Must disagree with you there. Final Fantasy X was a great game dispite its all-new experience system; innovation isn't always a bad thing. (though I'm staying far away from FF X-II) Also, character and story is a very important element in an RPG as well. Even if Final Fantasy VIII was great, Squall just isn't my kind of hero.
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Post by numbuheightbitstar on Mar 11, 2004 6:45:56 GMT
Also, character and story is a very important element in an RPG as well. ... I disagree with this. But I need not argue it because I've done articles about it elsewhere (Look on my "Classic Quests" page). Suffice to say, if this were true then games like Wizardry and the first Dragon Warrior would be downright boring.
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RisanF
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Post by RisanF on Mar 11, 2004 6:55:23 GMT
... I disagree with this. But I need not argue it because I've done articles about it elsewhere (Look on my "Classic Quests" page). Suffice to say, if this were true then games like Wizardry and the first Dragon Warrior would be downright boring. Consider this, then: would Chrono Trigger be as good of a game if it didn't have its stroy elements? The fun characters, mysteries of the pendant and Zeal, are all story elements that were just as important as wicked Double Techs and Rainbow Swords. Granted, it is possible to enjoy an RPG with little or no story, like Dragon Warrior or Ultima IV. (though I hated those dungeons) But how can you deny the importance of story, after seeing the excellent plots of Final Fantasys IV and VI which shoot those games through the roof?
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Post by numbuheightbitstar on Mar 11, 2004 7:04:37 GMT
Consider this, then: would Chrono Trigger be as good of a game if it didn't have its stroy elements? The fun characters, mysteries of the pendant and Zeal, are all story elements that were just as important as wicked Double Techs and Rainbow Swords. Granted, it is possible to enjoy an RPG with little or no story, like Dragon Warrior or Ultima IV. (though I hated those dungeons) But how can you deny the importance of story, after seeing the excellent plots of Final Fantasys IV and VI which shoot those games through the roof? "Granted, it is possible to enjoy an RPG with little or no story, like Dragon Warrior or Ultima IV." If story were truly important, this wouldn't be possible. Though I could argue about wether or not Ultima IV has a story... it has one, just you have more control over it than most games give you. Yes, the story and characters WERE part of what made Chrono Trigger fun. However, by the same token, the Crane Kick scene in The Karate Kid is part of what made that movie fun, but it doesn't mean Crane Kicks are undeniably important.
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RisanF
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Post by RisanF on Mar 11, 2004 7:39:12 GMT
"Granted, it is possible to enjoy an RPG with little or no story, like Dragon Warrior or Ultima IV." If story were truly important, this wouldn't be possible. Though I could argue about wether or not Ultima IV has a story... it has one, just you have more control over it than most games give you. Yes, the story and characters WERE part of what made Chrono Trigger fun. However, by the same token, the Crane Kick scene in The Karate Kid is part of what made that movie fun, but it doesn't mean Crane Kicks are undeniably important. I can't say that without story, a game is automaticly bad. But I can say that with a good story, a game will probably be at least a bit better, even if it's not an RPG. (the original Ninja Gaiden's story is much better than the X-Box version) But the importance of story and characters to a game may be dependant. While you may not want story in a non-linear game like Ultima IV, it's a definent boon to a game like Final Fantasy IV. But this isn't nessesarily about Good Story versus No Story. It's also about Good Story versus Bad Story.
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Post by numbuheightbitstar on Mar 11, 2004 9:01:55 GMT
But this isn't nessesarily about Good Story versus No Story. It's also about Good Story versus Bad Story. I find it's hard to see what makes a "Bad" story. As I said in my Good Fanfiction article, I think it depends primarily on how that story is done. I mean, I can name four anime that had tournament storylines at one point (Saint Seiya, Dragon Ball, Rockman EXE, and Yuyu Hakusho), but each one did them differently and affected the enjoyability of the tournament itself. Saint Seiya is my preference here--it's tournament is really just a mini-story arc that serves to introduce the characters and only lasts five episodes, whereas Yuyu Hakusho's tournament was wayyy overdrawn (lasting, what, thirty episodes?) and was tiring just because (though then again, I find that YYH the anime is just tiring in general, as opposed to the manga). But I digress...
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Post by pinkdenim on Mar 11, 2004 20:59:44 GMT
Aren't we going off subject?
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Post by tako on Mar 12, 2004 2:35:57 GMT
I agree. You guys should go make another thread and talk about video games, anime, and storylines there.
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Post by OneEyedPimp20 on Mar 12, 2004 4:11:27 GMT
Aren't we going off subject? I agree too, Sammycakes. I just hate going off subject. Let's just make a new thread on other catergories. Like Tako said.
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RisanF
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Posts: 244
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Post by RisanF on Mar 12, 2004 18:54:19 GMT
I agree too, Sammycakes. I just hate going off subject. Let's just make a new thread on other catergories. Like Tako said. Alright, alright, alright. Don't need to hear it from everyone and their sister. (lucky Ika hasn't register yet ^_^) It's just that no one's posting on this subject to begin with except for me and EightBit, so what else are we to respond to? But, whatever. My feelings are where they stand. I have no real beef with shounen/shoujo-ai; there are some great stories about them. But I cringe when questionable yaoi fanfics get so much praise. It's the audience I'm worried about the most, not slash.
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Post by tako on Mar 12, 2004 22:03:05 GMT
I have a good friend who really likes reading Harry Potter fanfiction and so one day, she gave me the URL of a "very good fanfic" in her opinion, but she warned me that it was Snape/Harry.
... ¬_¬;;;
The fanfic was okay (definitely not as bad as it could have been), but Snape/Harry just seems like, "Oh, I'll take two random male characters and pair them together!! Oh look, Snape and Harry absolutely hate each other. How PERFECT!!!"
So, the problem I have with some shoujo/shounen-ai is that it's completely random. Also, some have no storyline at all. A good romance fic, no matter what the couple is, should not just be about their kissing adventures or something. It should be plot with a little bit of cute moments on the side, not the other way around.
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