|
|
Post by numbuheightbitstar on Dec 20, 2003 15:51:30 GMT
Okay, now we've had votes for what our favorite episodes were, now I have a question: What did you think of Season Two overall?
Furthermore, which did you like better, Season Two or Season One, and why?
I'm going to with-hold my own opinions until I hear some answers.
|
|
|
|
Post by NumbuhInfinity on Dec 20, 2003 19:10:01 GMT
I say... Season Two. Why? Because the Season Two eps are so much more funny, dramatic, and plotworthy (for the most part). Some fan questions were answered (such as whether or not Numbuh One was the Head of the KND Organization, to which the answer is now no), we get interesting new characters, and we have some character development as well.
Cree is a darn cool ninja-like chick. Not only that, she used to be a KND, Numbuh Eleven. How cool is that? She's kinda mysterious too, aligning with Father and the Delightfuls, and we still do not know specifically why. Maybe she's mad at the KND for forcing her out with the age-13 rule?
Numbuh 86 is okay, but is rather b****y most of the time. Though after seeing her a couple times, especially in certain fanart (one from Bizarro), I think she looks kinda cute. When she isn't being Miss Bee-in-Undies a lot. I heard she'll be a lot worse in the official Season Two finale, END...
Finally, Lizzie. Her character developed quite a bit in this season, and seems a lot better than what she seemed to be in the previous season. In fact, twice this season she saves the KND's (particularly Nigel's) hides, with nearly getting herself hurt in CAKED-TWO even after Nigel got upset with her tricking them. We also now know Nigel DOES have feelings for her (very evident in CAKED-TWO), and I think their "special relationship or something" developed a bit more by the end of CAKED-TWO, but that's my opinion. I guess this means Nigel/Lizzie are now the official-official couple. No problem with me as I like the pairing (even more, now).
There were a couple episodes of Season Two I didn't like as much, and it's disappointing we won't see the last three eps until about six months from now, but otherwise overall I like Season Two way better. Bravo, Season Two!
|
|
RisanF
Field Operative
2/LL
Posts: 244
|
Post by RisanF on Dec 20, 2003 19:36:38 GMT
Okay, now we've had votes for what our favorite episodes were, now I have a question: What did you think of Season Two overall? Furthermore, which did you like better, Season Two or Season One, and why? I'm going to with-hold my own opinions until I hear some answers. It's not easy to say which season is better, since Season II relied heavily on the foundation laid by Season I. But even with that being said, I believe Season II really rocketed with the universe of KND. We've gotten a greater view of the KND Organization, a better, more sympathetic Lizzie, some off-the-wall plotlines, (Teenage Numbuh Two stands out) and the most interesting villianess ever to appear: Cree Lincoln. Perhaps the most interesting thing about Season II is its use of actual continuality, a thing that cartoons similiar to KND rarely make use of. Though there is the usual share of throwaway episodes, (Cheese Ninjas and Crazy-Old-Cat-Lady anyone?) there is a running plot concerning Cree and the KND Organization. I have a feeling that Waburton isn't just churning out crap for the masses; he actually has a master plan behind his creation. With the broadened view of the KND and the engaging web of characters old and new, Codename: Kids Next Door is changing from a silly, lighthearted cartoon to a animated show with real intrigue and a tremendous amount of captivating depth. (something that its greatest rival, "The Powerpuff Girls," has negelcted to accomplish) |
|
|
|
Post by numbuheightbitstar on Dec 21, 2003 2:18:28 GMT
Okay, now I shall state my opinion on this matter.
For which season I like better... the vote goes to Season One. The reason for this is because one, sorry RisanF, but I liked KND BECAUSE it was a simple and lighthearted show. I don't have an aversion to deep and complicated shows (I've got the whole Spawn collection, after all) however I don't feel EVERY show needs to be deep and complicated. Another problem is that in the first season, I could believe these characters were little kids. Not only did they look like little kids, but they acted like little kids too. Now they've fallen into the trap where they're only kids because they're smaller than the adults, but they don't behave much like actual kids. An example:
In Season One, a bunch of teenagers were going up to a mountain at night... and Nigel's overactive imagination concocted a fantasy about a factory that turned teenagers into adults.
In Season Two, a devious three year old helps Abby backstab her sister then goes on to theorize that those tricks always work due to hormones.
Honestly, I didn't like the story arc. First was because it struck me as a flawed attempt to top Season One, and secondly because I really don't care anymore. After all, now we know that, outside of our beloved 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 274, everyone else in the KND is a complete and total jerk (as one person once stated, the KND itself threatens to be almost as bad as the adults). So heck, I almost want Cree to win.
Finally, wrapping up all the berating I've done, I felt some of the character portrayals were off. How long has it been since Kuki's had a good spazz or Nigel's had a good case of looking too much into a situation? But the worst case is Abby: In SPACE you could've left Wally on the ship instead of Abby and you'd still have practically the same sequence of dialogue and events from the the beginning of the conversation with Cree up to when Mushi begins moralizing.
I'm not saying I hate season two, but Risan, you and NumbuhInfinity have pretty much said everything positive there is to say about it. So excuse me if my post sounds incredibly negative. That's not intentional.
|
|
|
|
Post by NumbuhInfinity on Dec 23, 2003 5:51:46 GMT
Hm, this thread isn't going too well. Oh well, maybe I can give it a little spark of life, huh? Okay, now I shall state my opinion on this matter. For which season I like better... the vote goes to Season One. For some reason I'm not surprised, can't figure out why....  Well I guess you can thank people like Cree or Numbuh 86 for that. Because of them they (our KND) had to constantly stay on their toes... Had they (Cree and/or 86) not bothered to pick on them we'd probably still have eps like Season One where they acted like 'actual kids'. But then again we wouldn't have had a broader view of the organization then... Well I think Mushi's line was more for comedic effect than anything. Like I said in another thread I'm sure it was a one-time thing, or at least a pretty rare occurence. After all, didn't you used to be surprised by Kuki's anger in LICE? And I didn't know Mushi was three years old. How'd you find that out? Or was that a guess? Heehee, yeah, Numbuh 86 and those pilots in SPACE do appear to be royal opposite-of-boy canines. But those were only three people. Then again we have that decommissioning squad in END, and who knows how they treat a certain individual there. But I don't think ALL KND agents (besides the ones you mentioned) are total jerks. Maybe it just appears that way because of those three operatives... Kuki: Um, what does "spazz" mean? If you mean making random comments or suddenly burst into giggles and dances or just being overly cute (in a good way), she still does that, I think. Nigel: Operation: SUPPORT, anyone? Okay so it was because of what the LUNCHBOCKS told him, but still... Heh heh heh. Well, if you had your own older sibling turn out to be against a group she used to be in and that you're in now, and is trying to ultimately destroy you and your friends, you wouldn't be a happy little camper, either. Then I wish I didn't state so many of the positive stuff about it then 'cause at first glance to most people it would appear you DID hate Season Two!  Man, I can't believe I'm doing this... I hope this doesn't turn into a long-winded debate, I'd hate to participate in those types. |
|
|
|
Post by numbuheightbitstar on Dec 23, 2003 7:00:31 GMT
For some reason I'm not surprised, can't figure out why.... Hmmm... he knows me almost too well.... Then again, some stuff should remain in the realm of speculation... like what exactly happened that led up to the events of Star Wars: Episode IV: A New Hope. (though I must admit Season Two, at least, managed to not directly contradict anything we already knew... unlike the Star Wars prequels). Up until I re-watched Season One and saw that it was a trait that had already been hinted at well before then, yea. Age confusion. She's actually five. Ummm.... I count: Numbuh 86 (SHE'S EVIL!!!) Those pilots in SPACE. And the pilots in FUGITIVE. Oh, and the nerdy-looking kid in BRIEFS. (I should note that it makes no sense that Numbuh One has to be there personally to recieve a warning concerning a threat on his life. Then again though, I don't question the logic of living foodstuffs, so I'll just let this slide). It's just I can't see Abby making poses and spouting out lame threats like some sort of blood-crazed street brawler. She's always seemed like the more subtle type to me. Nah. We've kept it on a more or less friendly level. You know everyone gets bored of friendly discussion ^__^. |
|
|
|
Post by NumbuhInfinity on Dec 23, 2003 8:15:05 GMT
Hmmm... he knows me almost too well.... Then again, some stuff should remain in the realm of speculation... like what exactly happened that led up to the events of Star Wars: Episode IV: A New Hope. (though I must admit Season Two, at least, managed to not directly contradict anything we already knew... unlike the Star Wars prequels). Yeah, it's good that they haven't. It gets annoying when many shows do that. Cartoon-Cartoons besides KND are especially guilty of the sin (i.e. Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Lab, etc.). Ah, okay. That makes a bit more sense (and easier on me for certain not-anytime-soon fics o' mine). Oh yeah, those pilots in FUGITIVE, making snide remarks toward the supposed-to-be-decommissioned agent. Sad how you suddenly become ridiculed and treated like a hound-dog once you reach the age limit. If the creator of the Kids Next Door organization were to ever see this, he'd/she'd would be none too pleased......(*cough**cough*) After thinking about it for a bit she did sorta acted like Wally or even Hoagie during that scene. Guess Abby can't complain about Hoagie's lines anymore. Heh, so true. ^^ |
|
|
|
Post by numbuheightbitstar on Dec 23, 2003 8:34:06 GMT
Oh yeah, those pilots in FUGITIVE, making snide remarks toward the supposed-to-be-decommissioned agent. Sad how you suddenly become ridiculed and treated like a hound-dog once you reach the age limit. If the creator of the Kids Next Door organization were to ever see this, he'd/she'd would be none too pleased......(*cough**cough*) Another interesting factoid was this: Nigel never reported in for decomissioning/recomissioning in Operation: GROW-UP! So much for being a "by the book" kind of guy, right? ^__^. See, now the discussion is almost over because I'm right ^__^. |
|
RisanF
Field Operative
2/LL
Posts: 244
|
Post by RisanF on Dec 24, 2003 3:37:02 GMT
Another interesting factoid was this: Nigel never reported in for decomissioning/recomissioning in Operation: GROW-UP! So much for being a "by the book" kind of guy, right? ^__^. See, now the discussion is almost over because I'm right ^__^. Not so fast, EightBitStar. You haven't gotten by me yet. ^_^ I do think Abby's "lame threats" were not only in-character, but cool too. And I believe this because of the thing Abby possesses that Hoagie and Wally do not: the ability to back up her words. Whenever Hoagie makes a remark, he's often doing it just to be cool, and dosen't always have the courage or skill to back it up. And whenever Wally makes a remark, he's just letting off steam, and again dosen't always have the skill to back it up. (to his credit, he does have the courage) But when Abby is making a remark, it's clear she has enough skill for her threats to potentially become a reality. When she's shaking her fist and yelling at Cree, she means what she says, and therefore makes the transition from acting tough to actually being tough. We've all seen the KND agents behave in a way that seemed OOC, and Abby's actions were simply showing another side of her personality. It showed that, unlike Wally, who may be just living a boyish power craze, Abby is a true, serious fighter, trained by the best fighter in the KND.* Back to what you said earlier, EightBitStar: I honestly wasn't intending to respond, since I didn't think I should be bothered by other people's opinions. But since we've all mananged to let ourselves get defensive, I feel I might as well jump right in. About the kid's not acting like kids: I don't believe the KND are under any obligation to act their age. You've said it yourself on your website: only Hoagie appears to broach being like an actual kid, and Abby often acts more adult that some adults. The line was already broken years ago, when Charles Shultz decided to have eight-year-old children quoting philosophy and engaging in heart-wrenching angst. It's just a manner of whether the viewer perfers that interpretation or not. (which you must not, but that's fine) About the KND organization: To start off on another point, I don't believe the subplot was just a cheap attempt at topping Season 1, since I obviously bought it. I do agree that some of the KND agents (not everyone, but alot of the upper management) are wallowing around in their own corruption.** This can be seen as either bad or good: it may not make you want to root for the survival of the KND, but it makes for great fanfiction fodder. At any rate, given what I've heard about END, the snooty actions of '86 may very well kick her in the butt, and some serious cleaning house can take place in the extra-terrestial treehouse. *Yeah, I do take cartoons a bit seriously. But judging by some of the other discussions on this board, we're way past that point. **The person who claimed the management was acting too adult-like: wasn't that me? ^_^ Edit: I changed my ending in my fifth paragraph from "which you do not" to "which you must not, but that's fine." The previous statment sounded too much like an afront to me, when it was actually meant to be an olive-branch. |
|
RisanF
Field Operative
2/LL
Posts: 244
|
Post by RisanF on Dec 24, 2003 3:46:10 GMT
Okay, now I shall state my opinion on this matter. For which season I like better... the vote goes to Season One. The reason for this is because one, sorry RisanF, but I liked KND BECAUSE it was a simple and lighthearted show. I don't have an aversion to deep and complicated shows (I've got the whole Spawn collection, after all) however I don't feel EVERY show needs to be deep and complicated. Another problem is that in the first season, I could believe these characters were little kids. Not only did they look like little kids, but they acted like little kids too. Now they've fallen into the trap where they're only kids because they're smaller than the adults, but they don't behave much like actual kids. An example: In Season One, a bunch of teenagers were going up to a mountain at night... and Nigel's overactive imagination concocted a fantasy about a factory that turned teenagers into adults. In Season Two, a devious three year old helps Abby backstab her sister then goes on to theorize that those tricks always work due to hormones. Honestly, I didn't like the story arc. First was because it struck me as a flawed attempt to top Season One, and secondly because I really don't care anymore. After all, now we know that, outside of our beloved 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 274, everyone else in the KND is a complete and total jerk (as one person once stated, the KND itself threatens to be almost as bad as the adults). So heck, I almost want Cree to win. Finally, wrapping up all the berating I've done, I felt some of the character portrayals were off. How long has it been since Kuki's had a good spazz or Nigel's had a good case of looking too much into a situation? But the worst case is Abby: In SPACE you could've left Wally on the ship instead of Abby and you'd still have practically the same sequence of dialogue and events from the the beginning of the conversation with Cree up to when Mushi begins moralizing. I'm not saying I hate season two, but Risan, you and NumbuhInfinity have pretty much said everything positive there is to say about it. So excuse me if my post sounds incredibly negative. That's not intentional. But it does sound incredibly negative. You're treating the positve things that 'Infinity and I stated like they were insifnifigent, and something that you don't seem to really buy. Granted, you can very well believe that what we are saying is unworthy trash; freedom of speech. But if you want to come off as positive, I think you'll need to go over some of the points of Season 2 that make it "unhatable", even if it is running over territory that has already been treaded upon. |
|
|
|
Post by numbuheightbitstar on Dec 24, 2003 5:32:42 GMT
Not so fast, EightBitStar. You haven't gotten by me yet. ^_^ And so it comes down to the mighty James versus the might RisanF. Let's get ready to rumble! He does, however, have a lever. (POP reference). Outside of Kuki, who else? and as I said elsewhere, Kuki's temperament only looked OOC because an episode showed to make it more blatant, and a look back through the show shows that it was really a part of her character all along. Yes, but in all her previous fights she usually remains silent, or at least doesn't talk much (just look at Operation: CHAD), and when she does, it's for an important explanation or to criticize one of Hoagie's lines. Unlike Kuki, who HAD displayed temperamental behavior before LICE, Abby's behavior in SPACE first happened in SPACE. Defensive? Me and NumbuhInfinity basically softly disagreed with each other and kept it all friendly. Actually, my exact words were: "Taken into account with how wild the other KND can be, Numbuh Two is probably the one member of the team who most approaches being a normal kid" that doesn't mean the others don't have childlike traits--Just look at Abby, the "adult" who has her candy fixation and is also ignorant of the concept of sex (as shown in POINT). No offense, but this line of debate is terribly flawed. Peanuts comics have no relation whatsoever to KND. They're different characters by a different author, who has his own choice on how to portray his characters. Sure, both feature a cast of kids as main characters, however that still makes it about as relevant as pulling Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles into a discussion of the Castlevania video games. Perhaps. On one hand, if hands fanfiction authors more material, on the other hand it puts more canon on them which some may see as restricting (particularly anyone who doesn't agree with my "Canon can be thrown aside to make a better story" rule). ... Yes, it was, in fact. |
|
RisanF
Field Operative
2/LL
Posts: 244
|
Post by RisanF on Dec 24, 2003 15:26:34 GMT
But it does sound incredibly negative. You're treating the positve things that 'Infinity and I stated like they were insifnifigent, and something that you don't seem to really buy. Granted, you can very well believe that what we are saying is unworthy trash; freedom of speech. But if you want to come off as positive, I think you'll need to go over some of the points of Season 2 that make it "unhatable", even if it is running over territory that has already been treaded upon. Edit: I've made a slew of silly posting errors concerning this threat, like quoting myself when I wanted to modify my post. I've cleaned up my mistakes now, so just look back through to see my statements as they were meant to be shown. |
|
|
|
Post by numbuheightbitstar on Dec 25, 2003 8:38:57 GMT
Edit: I've made a slew of silly posting errors concerning this threat, Threat? Are you threatening me?! ^__^ (Just kidding) I have. My responses still stand, however. |
|
|
|
Post by numbuhfourrocks on Dec 25, 2003 11:35:55 GMT
helo
|
|
RisanF
Field Operative
2/LL
Posts: 244
|
Post by RisanF on Dec 25, 2003 21:37:55 GMT
And so it comes down to the mighty James versus the might RisanF. Let's get ready to rumble! (Mr. Wink voice) Indeed, Mr. Star. He does, however, have a lever. (POP reference). Yes, P.O.P. was one of Hoagie's better episodes, but that's because he had enough courage at that time to make his smart remarks to Fizz go over so well. It still doesn't make him tougher than Abby, though. Outside of Kuki, who else? and as I said elsewhere, Kuki's temperament only looked OOC because an episode showed to make it more blatant, and a look back through the show shows that it was really a part of her character all along. It's not like Abby went and sprouted fangs on Cree. All she did was shake her fist and show some venom. And before that, she was talking with typical Numbuh Five nonchalance, ("That's right...!") which let into a perfect setup for revealing her volatile, confrontational side. In anwser to your question, try Numbuh 1 in Operartion: B.R.I.E.F.. He was acting as kooky as Kuki at the beginning, in his own Numhuh 1 way. (British people are funny ^_^) Yes, but in all her previous fights she usually remains silent, or at least doesn't talk much (just look at Operation: CHAD), and when she does, it's for an important explanation or to criticize one of Hoagie's lines. Unlike Kuki, who HAD displayed temperamental behavior before LICE, Abby's behavior in SPACE first happened in SPACE. Sorry, I still don't think its so out of character for her to do such things, if for no other reason than I still believed she was Abby, and that she can be herself and badass at the same time. Even if WAS a truly odd event, Abby ca do things that she hasn't done before, and her character is allowed to change too. If you must have a reason for this event to make sence to you, consider that Abby has never been shown having a relationship with an evil older sister before. Maybe Cree brings out things in Numbuh Five that just hasn't been seen before. A lot of our argument revolves around the fact that you don't like the developments in Season 2, and I do. When I saw the event in S.P.A.C.E. we're discussing, any shock of the action just made me think: "Alirght, Numbuh 5's bringin' out the big guns, baby!", not "Numbuh 5 is OOC." The changes in Season 2 were changes I was hoping that would happen, and I was pleasently surprised that Waburton seemed to share my thoughts. We can trade points until we're blue in the face, (fingers?) but I doubt anything will change. Defensive? Me and NumbuhInfinity basically softly disagreed with each other and kept it all friendly. Not defensive as in "how dare you disagree with me," but defensive as in being insecure about one's own opinion. After all, if we were all rocksolid in our own judgements of Season 2, why would we need to defend them from other people's judgements of Season 2? Like if I were to say: "EightBitStar has his opinion about Season II, and I have mine, and that's fine" and leave it at that. But perhaps I'm projecting my own thoughts onto other people... Actually, my exact words were: "Taken into account with how wild the other KND can be, Numbuh Two is probably the one member of the team who most approaches being a normal kid" that doesn't mean the others don't have childlike traits--Just look at Abby, the "adult" who has her candy fixation and is also ignorant of the concept of sex (as shown in POINT). Yes, but Abby tends to be very hard-core about her candy fixation, what with sneaking into the DCFDTL's mansion and seeking the mysterious Fourth Flavor. Kind of like we're arguing about a cute cartoon written for children 7-10. Interesting note: Codename: Kids Next Door doesn't downplay childhood misconceptions, but makes them larger than like. Numbuh One's interpretation of bras as Battle Ready Armor can be seen as typical childhood silliness, until we realize he was right and bras are, in fact, Battle Ready Armor. You assume that Nigel goes off on childhood misconceptions, but his instincts serve him right as often as they fail him. Who are adults to say that he's not smarter than all of them? No offense, but this line of debate is terribly flawed. Peanuts comics have no relation whatsoever to KND. They're different characters by a different author, who has his own choice on how to portray his characters. Sure, both feature a cast of kids as main characters, however that still makes it about as relevant as pulling Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles into a discussion of the Castlevania video games. It's not flawed at all. The argument is meant to show that child characters need not be restricted to childlike personalities, and the Peanuts reference was just to show that such an interpretation of child characters is not a new thing. If you want to talk about just KND, the show has always messed around with incorporating kid and adult traits into its characters. (unless you can find another 10 year old boy who obsessively chases missions and speaks like a 30 year old British naval commander) And even if it didn't, Waburton is free to develop his characters in whatever manner he sees fit. You once wrote a KND fanfic involving a Delightful Child taking over the manor and basically squashing her father underfoot. It's no good to say that Waburton can't give adult-traits to his characters as well, especially since what he's doing is so minor compared to your story. Perhaps. On one hand, if hands fanfiction authors more material, on the other hand it puts more canon on them which some may see as restricting (particularly anyone who doesn't agree with my "Canon can be thrown aside to make a better story" rule). I'm somewhat of an advocate of that philosophy. After all, I once wrote a DBZ fanfic where I tore the timeline in two so I could have Goku and Bulma as a couple. But what I'm worried about is that the same philosophy will persuade authors to just turn their backs on Season 2 and the great ideas it has given us. Just ignore the new-and- improved Lizzie, Cree, '86, and continue as normal. I'll level with you: I'm not really a fan of KND fanfics. Though fanfiction gives writers the chance to mold a show to their choosing, what we've seen so far is an endless stream of 3/4 and 1/5 fanfics, Numbuh 2 being kicked to the side, and other things. I think it would be nice to see more Nigel/Lizzie stories, or maybe something concerning Abby and Cree's relationship. Which leads to another another reason on why I like Season 2 better: it develops the ideas that I like to see, while KND fanfics tend to stick to just a few ideas I'm not as interested in. I know it's no good to try and control 3/4 and 1/5 fans, and there's nothing I can say here that won't sound hypocritical: fact is, I follow canon depending on whether or not it suits my own ideas. But I do wish authors would give the ideas of Season 2 a chance. In some genres, fanfics are used to create a new twist when the show has gotten old. But in the KND genre, fanfics are used to continue old ideas while the show creates new twists. So ends my feelings on the subject. P.S.: The "threat" thing in the other post was supposed to be "thread." This is why I'm not in Congress causing international incidents. |
|
